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 Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...

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head5745



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PostSubject: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:45 am

Wichi and I were playing and got to talking about a questionable play that both of us ran into against Leokillz. This isn’t a call for a rule change (unless that is what the league wants) but more so a type of public service announcement.

Here’s the play:

With a runner on 2nd base and no one on third, Leo will lead his guy off the base (large lead, 2 clicks at least). When IF breaks for the base, Leo breaks to third with the runner and is in safely before the 2B/SS even has the ball.

It seems innocent enough, but here is my problem with it: it takes advantage of a glitch in the game. The play works because of the ridiculously slow process of the IF covering second base and the pitcher making the throw. Once the IF moves, the pitcher is locked into going to 2nd base, opening the play up for the runner.

The pitcher could step off, but then the runner still makes it easily back into second before the fielder arrives. The runner could play this game all day: he’s easily safe to second on a step-off, it’s an easy steal on a pitch (or run scored on a base hit), and it is even easier steal on a throw to 2nd (as mentioned above).

Leo pointed out that you can adjust your defense to put a fielder on the base, therefore holding the runner on. I countered that that would leave a gaping hole since the fielder doesn’t get back into position in the game. His response- “everything can’t be perfect head”

My response to that, “No, kidding. And the imperfections don't need to be exploited.”

Again, I think there could be grounds for a rule change here, but if mike doesn’t think so, I at least wanted to make every player aware of this before it is tried on them. I was locked in a 0-0 game when Leo tried it twice. He’s a great player who doesn’t have to resort to cheap tactics in my opinion.

It didn’t cost me the game, and hopefully it doesn’t cost anyone else going forward.

(End of diatribe)
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mikeda1940
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:00 am

Why don't you delay stepping off until he's more committed to 3rd? Then, instead of throwing the ball, run to the base runner at an angle that cuts him off?

Seems its a matter of timing.

Anyone who I've picked off for making agressive running plays, raise your hand! Very Happy
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head5745



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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:02 am

Mike, once you step off, the runner returns to the base before the fielder can get there. It isn't like he needs a lead half-way to third in order to make this work. You could do it by taking just one additional step off the base probably (definitely 2 steps which puts you in no danger of getting picked off).

EDIT: Also, he doesn't commit to 3rd until the fielder moves toward second base which means the pitcher is locked into his throw there.
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damilkmanpart2

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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:27 am

I was in the chatroom when this issue was brought up.. Head does have a point. In my opinion this play is considered a glitch. It has been done many of times to me online. The only difference was that the runner was on first. Trust me, its not an easy play to pick up if you are the pitcher.. Because of the slow reaction in the game, the pitcher or fielder have no chance. If you do step off, the runner just returns to the base. As Head stated you can play this game all day...
The runner usually begins to run even before the windup. That is not illegal in real life but its just what the speed of The Show is...

I say "bootum"... There's been too many issues with this guy... Just kidding but this is an issue that can affect the league
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Leokillz

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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:05 am

LOL, I'm just gonna laugh at this. Mike U just hit the nail in the Head, that's my point exactly; if it can be stop, then is not illegal. Oh and by the way, I just thought of another dumb thing that happens in the game to me and I can't stop it either: Runner at 1st I take a lead, a 1 step lead, pitcher throws to 1st and the runner doesn't bother to get back to the base. Is that fair? Is a glitch of the game, I guess. But yet people exploit it too.
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head5745



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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:48 am

Getting picked off is not a glitch in the game. It is a risk you take when you take an extra lead. You can stop it by not taking the extra lead, or returning to a standard lead before the pitcher makes his move.

Leo, you are a very good player and I usually like playing you, but your schtick gets pretty old any time someone brings up something about your play (which has happened far more than with any other player).


EDIT: And I want to repeat again, I'm not calling for a rule change in the league necessarily. I just think it is at worse a VERY sneaky play that could cost someone a game in the future. I'm sorry to let everyone know about your dirty little secret. Is that what you are upset about?
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YouLightWork

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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:18 am

Leo your taking the fun outta the game bro. Not starting anything just bringing it up that your always the center of discussion and whenever your name gets brought up you get very defensive. On the other hand your quick to throw people under the bus for bs like quick pitching by mistake.

Play the game like is was a real baseball game. What major leaguer would take a 45 foot lead? Lets play ball gentleman. IMO i say make that play ILLEGAL and lets move on with this. Sorry to say but this bullshyt makes me lose my passion to play. I really dont wanna have to worry about having to step off the mound a million times just so you can't take advantage of a glitch. Whats wrong with good old small ball? Sacrifice the runner over... Just my 2 cents. And yea shyts getting old Evil or Very Mad
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damilkmanpart2

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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:20 am

We as members of this league must make every effort to improve it not screw it up... Why ignore an issue or beat around the bush when most of the players disagree with it. This play in particular is a straight out cheese. I can bet that with that play Leo can run with his slowest player all day long. I don't think Mike fully understands the play. It sounds like a normal and legal play which it is in real life but it has to be seen to fully understand what is wrong with it.
My advice would be if Leo has a chance to record it and post it on the forum. we would all have a better feel of what is being debated. Being that Leo is knowledgeable in recording, I don't see he would have a problem with it. Again, these little issues we deal with throughout the season will only make us stronger, closer and more successful as a league..

Leo please take some time out of your day and do it to somebody online lol while recording it so everybody can understand why if any members are against it...
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:22 am

YouLightWork wrote:
Leo your taking the fun outta the game bro. Not starting anything just bringing it up that your always the center of discussion and whenever your name gets brought up you get very defensive. On the other hand your quick to throw people under the bus for bs like quick pitching by mistake.

Play the game like is was a real baseball game. What major leaguer would take a 45 foot lead? Lets play ball gentleman. IMO i say make that play ILLEGAL and lets move on with this. Sorry to say but this bullshyt makes me lose my passion to play. I really dont wanna have to worry about having to step off the mound a million times just so you can't take advantage of a glitch. Whats wrong with good old small ball? Sacrifice the runner over... Just my 2 cents. And yea shyts getting old Evil or Very Mad
Yeah and Ima bust your culo next time around... so practice chump
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PostSubject: YO!   Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:38 am

I agree with Head, that play is BS. If the runner has a huge lead he can either get back to the base if the pitcher steps off or get an easy stolen base if pitcher throws to the plate. The problem is that if you step off and THEN try to throw the ball, the process is so slow it's a joke and the runner can get back easily. The pitcher steps off and then gets into this long unnecessary wind-up to throw the ball. I guess you can keep stepping off but how realistic or fun is that? And how long would that game take? It's kind of like the play when there's a runner on 2nd and the ball is hit to the shortstop. You look back the runner on 2nd and then throw to 1st. Right after the ball is in the air the runner on 2nd base takes off for third. The problem is that the 1st basemen pauses and again gets into an unnecessary wind-up allowing the runner to reach 3rd easily. There are many things in this game that can be taken advantage of that are just not realistic. I agree with head because that would just never happen in a real game. If a pitcher steps off the rubber and begins to throw to 2nd the runner on 2nd would never just take off for 3rd b/c they'd be out by a mile. The pitcher doesn't have to throw the ball to 2nd just because they started to, they would hold on to the ball and runner would get caught in a rundown. If it's not something you would see in the real game then you probably shouldn't be doing it, that my motto. What's great about this league is that we play the game in a way that resembles the real game and that's what makes it fun. It's on us to not resort to those tactics whether they are breaking a rule or not, they should be part of your own personal rules. Otherwise we might as well be playing in the "sportconnect" lobby with the rest of the idiots.
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Leokillz

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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:20 am

First of all: Head, I'm not mad, I actually find this topic funny. And second of all, I don't think it's an illegal or foul play because it's stoppable, at least I can stop it; I dare anybody in the league to do it to me, and I bet U it won't succeed, and no I don't have to step off a million times, maybe once or twice, is all about timing.

But U know what? I ain't going to go again into the He said she said. I respect all of U (well at least most of U LOL) so here's the deal, after this post I want everybody's comment to be a vote; I don't wanna hear about how bad it is anymore just say STOP, or I DON'T CARE, if STOP get's the majority, I won't ever do it again against U guys.

Please cast Ur votes.
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mikeda1940
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:47 am

Its up to Leo to figure out if he wants to honor an unoffical vote. I don't care either way.

If I'm not understanding the play, and if it would be helpful, then please record the play. Leo, if you can defend the play, record the defense.

I'm at work right now so I need more time to think it out.
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REDSOXNATION22

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PostSubject: YO!   Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:50 am

Do you guys remember "Double Dribble", how you could jump out of bounds from the corner and let the ball go before you landed and it would always go in, now that was funny. I gotta admit I used it pretty often Very Happy Leo you just don't get it brother, don't be so defensive man. This league is still a baby and we're just trying to work out the kinks. I have a laundry list of things I think shouldn't be done, I might even be guilty of some of them. I think everyone just wants to make this the most realistic league around. In my opinion, stuff like that shouldn't be done.
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:53 am

RSN= GLITCHER!!!! Double dribble lol
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:18 pm

Nah RSN U don't get it!, who says I'm being defensive?, U guys are giving Ur take on the subject and I'm giving mine ( I hope I have that right at least) I'm not being defensive I'm just saying the way I see the matter, I told U guys already I don't want to go into the He said She said. If U guys think it's unfair, then I'll stop; but that's from now on, there's nothing I can do about the bases I stole before, so just cast Ur vote and We can Move on.

Oh, and Mike, I'll try to record it so U see what it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:30 pm

I'm willing to get online tonight with my keyboard connection and experiment in exhibition mode with people if you wish. We can walk people out to second and figure it out, then quit before the first inning so its not official.
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mikeda1940
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:47 pm

How is the play Leo does different than this:

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=4535373&c_id=mlb

Note the defence back on the play. Keep in mind Beltran does this all the time. He did this in an All Star game once.
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Leokillz

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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:49 pm

Wonderful, but can U get on sometime on the afternoon? I promised that I wasn't going to play today, but I could do this.
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:52 pm

Im at work until 7. Doesn't have to be today. Doesn't have to only be with you.
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damilkmanpart2

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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:05 pm

Hey Mike, luv the Mets highlights cheers But you definately do not understand. I do not have any complaints against Leo with this play. After game 1 of the world series he played very clean against me, considering my over reaction in gm1. The play we called the bootum on was not his fault obviously but that of the game. This particular play is done by the player and is considered a cheese in the online world.. Again, no complaints on my part but I am familiar with the play. Personally I do not know how to execute the play nor defend against it, but I know it is more than just 2 clicks on your remote. I had 1 guy online do this play everytime he got on base and I had no idea what the hell to do. It seem as if the AI gets stuck and locks it self into doing something you really don't want to do...
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PostSubject: YO!   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:31 pm

That's fine with me, I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree on this issue. I don't think it should be done, but I'm also not in favor of creating a huge list of things that people can't do, that can become more problematic. I'm just hoping people understand why they shouldn't do it. Whatever is decided is fine by me.
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:36 pm

Funny how this issue is still alive. Make it illegal and move on. Seems like noone is defending this play besides Leo and Mike..
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:39 pm

Don't get me wrong, Im against the cheese. I'm just saying I can't complain because I cant remember the last time he did it to me in a game (he has done it to me). Its been awhile since we've played each other. My vote goes against the play.. Im against anything Leo does Twisted Evil No to quick pitching, no to cheesy steal... Vote for Pedro or Monty Brewster


Last edited by damilkmanpart2 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:41 pm

YouLightWork wrote:
Funny how this issue is still alive. Make it illegal and move on. Seems like noone is defending this play besides Leo and Mike..
Mike is DEFENDER of The UNIVERSE
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PostSubject: Re: Notice of questionable play to all Phoenix League players...   Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:44 pm

Ya, remember that Beltran guy? Wonder what ever happened to him! Very Happy

To me, the term "glitch" gets overused. A "glitch" to me is a program flaw that violates the rules of the game. That's a more narrow definition than just "harder to defend than real life". And it needs to be more than "cheese" when we are talking about rule changes (something head has NOT called for).

In my admittedly limited experience, there are TWO (and ONLY two) "glitches" in the gameplay. The first is the quick pitch. The reason being it violates the definition a of balk where the picher has to come to a complete stop before thowing. Balks don't exist in this game, therefore MLB rules are violated.

The second "glitch" is the lack of a real hit and run in the game. If a player at first runs, and the batter swings, not only does the player never hit the ball, but the pitch is AUTOMATICALLY counted as a BALL. Again, we have a pure violation of MLB rules on balls and strikes.

What I hear often, both here and public forums, is not so much a "glitch" as an unrealistic or unatural play. One that does NOT violate the MLB rules per se, but plays that react differently in the game than they do in real life. This includes complaints that a pitcher won't throw strikes, the squeeze play, early steals, etc. These are the plays you usually see on MLB Blooper reels as unusual, but they DO exist in the real world. There ARE defenses against them, but they require knowlege and skill.

The difference to real life seems to be in the CONSEQUENCES. You don't see these plays often because, in real life, players will be grilled, managers fired, newspaper columns written, TWIB video tape sold for $9.99 at K-Mart. For Major League players, risk can cost them millions and their careers. Being too bold, aggressive, or reckless on Sportsconnect means someone has to answer only to himself.

So, I'm seeing this thread as "consequences". If it inspires Leo not to act on this play, then it worked. I'm not inclined to exclude by rule changes anything that is not a "glitch" (we don't have a rule for hit and run, but only because I realized the issue to late, and it never became an issue. If Leo was exploiting the hit and run glitch, we would be having a different discussion.) I don't want to exclude plays just because they're "hard".

Now, if you can fit my definition of "glitch" into this play, I'll reconsider. As I said, I'm willing to experiment to see if it fits my definition or not. So I'm not concluding this discussion. I'm just makings sure people understand the standards I'm using.
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